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D Gheorghe Olteanu interview Mr. E. Hauler of Passau, Germany, and Mr. Franz Wesner GO: You heard Mr. Franz Wesner's interview. What do you as a Swabian from Satu-Mare think of what he said? E. Hauler - EH: I cannot state what I think in a few words. Mr. Wesner has personally experienced all that for a long time, he has suffered so much unfortunately, and what he told us is now history, but it is also the pure truth. He did not live in Romania but he noticed that the Germans of Romania had a completely different fate than the ones who stayed in Hungary, in their so-called fatherland. That is why his testimony is so valuable. I think that what he related here could be very well included in history books; for it is history in the true sense of the word, not just mere anecdote. Franz Wesner - FW: Only when I came to live in Germany did I realize the difference between the Germans who pursuant to the Trianon Treaty came under Romanian rule, and us, those who remained under Hungarian domination. When I was home, in Hungary, I did not know that you Swabians of Romania or the other Swabians on the Danube had it far better. The Hungarian propaganda saw to it that we had no idea about all that. EH: It is well that you emphasize the fact, for as far as my individual fate is concerned, I also understood the meaning of what happened only here, in Germany. I was born in 1917 in Meintingen, and I grew up and went to school there. I was firmly convinced that I had been educated in a Hungarian elementary school. In the summer of 1992 I returned home for a visit, and I had the opportunity to search the school archive, when I was flabbergasted to learn that in reality I had been educated in a German school. Of course, you cannot understand what I am saying. Thus... we, the Swabians of Satu-Mare, were turned over to Romania through the Trianon Treaty, but Satu-Mare was 10 kilometers away from the Hungarian border, and the then Romanian government noticed that magyarization is still continuing in Satu-Mare and that the Hungarian Revisionist movement is growing. That is why is was decreed that here in Romania magyarization will be stopped and the Swabians will be taught in German. That decree was published in 1920 and was sent to the bishop, for all Swabians were educated in Roman-Catholic church schools. FW: Same as with us, the church has been the most aggressive tool in the work of magyarization. EH: The Romanian Ministry of Education informed the Bishop of Satu-Mare - for he was the head of confessional schools - that in 1921 teaching was to be done in German in the schools where the pupils were the Swabians of Satu-Mare. The bishop refused, and teaching thus continued to be done in Hungarian, although we were in Romania. FW: Excuse me for interrupting, but I would like to add something to what you say. Do you know what amazed me most and what I discovered also here, in Germany? How and why was it possible that the Romanians should allow the magyarization to continue? I cannot understand that. EH: We Germans were very pleased with the Romanians. But to answer your question: in Romania took place exactly the reverse of what happened in Hungary: Hungary lost half or more of her territory, and Romania gained in 1920 more than half. The intellectual forces were unequal, for the greater part of intellectuals were Hungarians. Teaching continued to be done in Hungarian. In 1922 the Romanian government again addressed the bishop. GO: Do you know the bishop's name? EH: That is of no consequence now. GO: Is his name not Fiedler? EH: No, not at all. Fiedler appeared on the horizon ten years later only. After Bishop Messlinger followed his secretary, Szabo, an administrator. In 1922 it was brought again to the surface, namely that the children of the Germans be raised only in their mother tongue, German. The bishop however again refused to comply. The teachers then tried to find the best solution. In our class roster of 1923-1924, all notations were made in German. The signatures were also in German - Paul Fischer and others. Today, after 60 years, I found out that in fact I had been taught in a German school. It is interesting to note that in the same class roster when Religion was taught all notations were made in Hungarian, including the signature of Dr. Schefner, our teacher of Religion, who later became Bishop of Satu-Mare. My schoolmaster, Paul Fischer, who died this year, had to follow the orders of his superior, namely of the bishop; he found a solution; in the class roster he made the notations in German but teaching was still done in Hungarian. FW: So that in fact only Hungarian was being taught although the documents showed the German language. EH: Yes, in reality I never heard a word of German. Only now do I understand what must have been the pain of that schoolmaster who had to live a lie, while the teacher of Religion could afford both to make his notations and to teach in Hungarian. FW: It results that the Romanians were extremely tolerant as regards the national minorities: otherwise I cannot account for the survival of those nationalities. EH: Look here, not only tolerant, but speaking as we see things now, they were even stupid, allowing them to do anything. Consider, although they decreed that the Germans must be educated in German, still that happened only 10-12 years later, interval in which all teaching of Germans was still done in Hungarian. FW: Do you know what I often wondered? Could you tell me how it came about that the Catholic clergy embraced so wholeheartedly the magyarization efforts? I was surprised reading here in Germany Pfeiffer's book and other books about your history, the history of the Swabians of Satu-Mare, for in our Swabian villages the Catholic clergy reacted absolutely identically, using almost identical words. What could have been the motivation of the Catholic clergy to embrace so completely the magyarization process? For being a Catholic did not necessarily mean being a Hungarian. EH: Mr. Wesner, you ask me a question to which you should be the one to give the answer, for I was raised in a Romanian frame of mind, although I had a few Hungarian high school years, whereas you were educated in Hungarian. You must know what happened in the Catholic Church and how in Hungary it identified itself with the government. FW: That is well said. It was the alliance between the throne and the altar. In Greater Hungary the Catholic Church was granted rights and privileges that it did not wish to relinquish. GO: I should like to ask you something. How could the Catholic Church be so powerful after World War II? EH: But we are not talking about World War II. GO: But after World War II the situation persisted? EH: We are coming too soon to speak about World War II; let us return to the epoch that followed World War 1. I should like to continue about the school I was educated in. In 1926 a German organization emerged and that was a stroke of luck for us. That organization was set up in Satu-Mare with the support of the Swabians from the Banat and of the Saxons from Transylvania. That organization was called The People's Swabian-German Community. That organization also influenced the peasants, for, as you said, the greater part of the Swabians, 99 % of them, were peasants. FW: So it was with us too. EH: That organization also opened in our village of Meintingen [Muftinul Mare] a list where the peasants wrote their names signifying that they wished to have a German school. That list was submitted to the bishop, for he was the school's headmaster. As late as 1930 he gave no answer to that petition. In 1920 the Romanians demanded that in each village there be a Romanian school. That happened in my village too - it was mandated that a public school be built, but the thrifty peasants suggested that the existing village school be split in two. The school had four classrooms, in two of them the Romanians were to be taught, and in the other two the magyarized Swabians. In the two Romanian classrooms there were about 40 students ip all, and in the other two there were 200, 100 in each. Speaking of that, I met here in Germany an old friend and I asked him in what language he had been taught in school, and he told me that in the first grade he had a German reading book but all teaching was done only Hi Hungarian. Then in the second grade he had a different teacher and this time everything was only in Hungarian. So, returning to our topic, since the Germans continued to be taught in Hungarian, they demanded from the government, against the wish of the church, a public school where teaching should be done in German. The state approved very fast that request and the Germans received a public school in which one single teacher was teaching over 100 students. GO: But that is impossible. EH: And still it happened, and the next year a single teacher was teaching 181 students. Seeing that, the state sent a second teacher, from the Banat. So there were two teachers and 181 students. The desire of the Swabians to learn in German schools was evident. Seeing that in that school there were already 200 Germans, and in the conventional school there were only very few magyarized Germans, the Germans demanded from the bishop a German Catholic school. They had a public school already but they wanted now a Catholic school as well. The bishop rejected that petition. Then that .organization approached the bishop showing him all petitions between 1926 and 1930 to which he had never answered, and in the end they threatened to report him to the Vatican. Thus in 1932 Bishop Fiedler took fright at that prospect and sent his secretary to Meintingen. Within 4 days the school was ready for the Swabians and they also had been provided with a teacher. I am telling you about Meintingen as it is my birthplace, but the same things happened in the other villages too. FW: With us the same thing happened. EH: In the other German villages, teaching in German was but a fiction, in fact all teaching was done in Hungarian only. The Romanians woke up to the situation and the Minister of the Cults, Angelescu, decreed that the Germans must not be taught in Hungarian, and if they do not agree with that their school will be closed. The church and thus also the teacher did not agree and thus the Meintingen school was closed. The state did not allow even a Romanian school in Meintingen for the Germans, only a German one. For two years 210 children were out in the streets. I am not making it up, I have documents to prove it. After two years the school reopened but it was a make-believe that teaching was done in German. It was not the teachers who were to blame, they only did their job. I do not wish to attack the church here, only its representatives, especially a few of the priests and the bishop. Bishop Fiedler, who came from the Banat, being misinformed and being a very devout man, could not believe that the priests, whose head he was, could be so perfidious and could do such things. Those priests were so perfidious, they used to hide ammunition in the theological library. That ammunition was discovered in 1939 by the Romanian authorities. That is why the bishop had to resign. FW: But why were they hiding ammunition in the library? EH: You may be sure, not to use it to blow up their church. It was a matter of the Hungarian revisionist movement. FW: I find the history of the Swabians of Satu-Mare most interesting, as it bears many similarities with our own history. You are the only exception for all other Swabians who detached themselves from Hungary after the Trianon Treaty experienced a true national revival, and were not magyarized like the Swabians of Satu-Mare. EH: However, we Swabians of Satu-Mare experienced a truly great national revival owing to the Romanians' coming into power, although they were counteracted by the Hungarians {Magyars]. When our "demise" was almost complete, the Romanians were our stroke of good luck. FW: It may be said without exaggerating that for you Swabians of Satu-Mare the Trianon Treaty was a liberation, the only and ultimate salvation. EH: Until 1938 schoolteaching continued in Hungarian. In 1938 the Church Council submitted a petition to the King in which it was stressed that for the last 17 years schoolteaching had continued to be done in Hungarian and that it would have been impossible to teach children in German since the children no longer speak German. GO: The King was a Hohenzollem? EH: Yes, of course. Based on that petition, teaching continued to be done in Hungarian, but this time officially. However, the King acted swiftly, and on December 7 a school inspector turned up in Meintingen who forbade teaching in Hungarian. FW: But only for those who were not Hungarians, not for the Hungarians as well, isn't it? EH: Of course. It was only for the Swabians. The Hungarians kept their rights the same as the Swabians from the Banat. That is exactly our problem, we who are Swabians from Satu-Mare. Here in Germany we were thrown together with the Swabians from the Banat and with the Transylvanian Saxons, and we were told that we could have done everything we wished in Romania. However it was not quite so, for although we had the same laws, in our case they were not observed. FW: So there was an illegal Hungary? EH: Exactly, and, as I asserted later, after 1945 in Northern Transylvania there was a Hungarian dictatorship of the proletariat. Before 1940 one could speak of an illegal Hungary, and after 1945 of a Hungarian dictatorship of the proletariat - of course, I refer to Northern Transylvania, and especially to Satu-Mare. FW: How could the Hungarians do everything they wished? And how did the Romanians tolerate that? EH: You asked a very good question. In 1940 the Hungarians poured into Northern Transylvania, and thus also into Satu-Mare, peremptorily doing away with teaching in Romanian and in German, in spite of the fact that Hitler had promised the Germans that their rights would be preserved, and in spite of the fact that a German Consulate had been set up in Cluj alongside of the Italian one. So, how was that proletarian dictatorship set up? In 1940 the Romanian intellectuals fled to Romania. In 1945 those Romanians did not return, for they did not wish to be oppressed under Russian rule and they hoped that the British and the Americans would not allow it. Thus, they set out to wait for help from those two powers. The Hungarians however, including those who had become Hungarians through assimilation, realized that that was their chance and became members of the Communist Party in mass. In Bucharest even, there weye more Hungarians than Romanians in the Social-Democrat Party. Thus they became protegees, ensuring numerous advantages for themselves and obtaining even a Hungarian autonomy in some regions. The Communist Party was in power, and it was pro-Hungarian and for the collaboration. Thus, until the Romanian educated classed woke up to see the facts, all strategic positions had already been taken, with the Party Secretaries and the Prefects being all Hungarians. In Satu-Mare, 20 years after 1945, Hungarian only was spoken at the Securitate [Secret Police], at the City Hall, and in the stores if you asked for something in Romanian you were not sold anything. FW: I read the newspapers frequently, and I am amazed to see that the Hungarians of Transylvania have the impertinence to ask that their flag be raised, the green-white-red flag, and that their national anthem be sung. Moreover they demand to have autonomy over all areas where some Hungarian minorities live. In our home lands they have done away with the compact masses of national minorities, through their expulsion policy. Thus, they can claim rights for the Hungarian minorities who live in Hungary's neighboring countries, and do not fear that the minorities who live in Hungary will claim the same rights - for those minorities have been scattered. Hungary had had the epitome of the policy of destroying her national minorities. If you dare assert that in Hungary, you are torn to pieces; that is why we do it openly here and in all other parts of the world where we can tell the truth. We are independent here and we speak freely. We do not wish to accuse the Hungarians unjustly, all we wish to do is tell the truth. EH: I have taught in a Romanian high school for 30 years, a high school that bears the name of the greatest Romanian poet, Mihail Eminescu. I was teaching German as a foreign language there. I taught between 1947 and 1977 and I can tell you that in the interval 1940-1950 my Romanian colleagues feared the regime as much as I did, or maybe even more. And that because the Communist Party Secretary and in general all those in leadership positions were in general Hungarians and a deep-rooted magyarization was going on in the Romanian villages. For instance in the village of Bobos, a village situated near the border and 15 kilometers away from our village, the priest was a Greek-Catholic and his homily was in Romanian. His son, a former colleague of mine, a teacher of Mathematics, told me that the Romanians - that was in the 1950's - asked that the homily be delivered in Hungarian. His father spoke no Hungarian and had to leave the village. GO: That means that the Romanians were already magyarized. EH: Yes, but the magyarization continued even after 1940, although those of Meintingen, as well as the others, were Magyarized between 1920 and 1940. My colleagues trusted me more than they did the Hungarians for we were in the same predicament. FW: When we asked German schools in Hungary we were told that whoever wants to have them is free to leave for the Black Forest. Not even at this date is there in the whole of Hungary one single true school for the minorities. EH: We Swabians make a clear cut distinction between the blood Hungarians, who were born Hungarians, and the assimilated ones, who were a lot more dangerous than the others. I am speaking against these latter ones in today's discussion. I should like to show you how deeply the people in Meintingen had been Magyarized: a neighbor of mine there told me once: "If I knew that German blood flows in my veins, I would cut them open. " I answered him that the best thing for him to do would be to cut his own head off. FW: We in Hungary also had no problems with the Hungarian peasants, who were on the contrary very decent even, but we had problems with the Hungarian office workers, with the middle class and the nobility. These were very savage, as was for instance Count Teleki, who committed suicide in 1941. And at the hands of the Hungarian writers we received nothing but harassment and persecution. They harassed and persecuted us in all their writings, paving the way in this manner on the ideological plane for our expulsion. EH: In 1992, when I revisited my native village, I told my wife that I was glad my parents are dead. The houses, formerly shining and clean, were now falling apart. GO: Do you believe that the Germans who live there stand a chance? EH: None, although they are well organized and call themselves Swabians. When the census was taken over one half of them declared to be Germans. But they lost the best lands and for that I blame the Romanian government, that had expropriated them. So as not to restore them to the Germans, those lands have been inscribed as the property of Dobrudja, a province that is 700 kilometers away from us. They claim that shepherds in Dobrudja use those lands to graze their sheep. The Swabians were compensated only with land of low quality. Still, owing to their diligence, from one crop only they managed to buy 12 tractors, and now they are very well equipped. They wanted to take the Romanian government to court, however, gave up the idea. Teaching is done only in Hungarian and in Romanian in schools, and the activities conducted in German are very few. GO: A friend of mine visited Meintingen recently and confessed that there was nobody there who could converse in German with him. EH: I did not learn German in my native village either, I learned it in Timi§oara. Our parents however spoke no Hungarian. When it was possible to be schooled in German in our village, everybody went to that school; and later, when they could no longer be educated in German under the Hungarians, the Germans joined the SS where they could take German language classes. In their conscience they were Germans, and considered themselves Swabians. GO: Thank you both.
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